| Grumpy |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 08/02/02 |
| Posts: 1590 |
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Probably not a
good title... Live with it...
Ok... First "baby step" list
here...
What we want: A short list of "defacto" mods that
most everybody can agree on for use in the game.
Do's: Mods
that "enhance" the original game, but do not modify gameplay nor the
overall "feel" of the game (probably not a good explanation... live
with it).
Dont's: No face packs, no quests, no massive
graphics enhancing mods, etc.
Just the mods that most use in
the game on a very regular basis.
This is an offshoot of an
idea concieved by "Dildo Baggins" in the "Goodwill Campaign Pact"
thread, but I don't intend it to go that far. See it here.
Once we have gotten a fairly good
listing, the next step will be to create a poll for all who wish to
vote. Poll will have pertinant mods listed, and the ultimate goal
will be to create somethng like a "Top 5" list of mods that most
everybody feels should be used in the game.
I'll start it
off: ThePal's "Patch" mod...
Others that might be considered:
Sign mods; weapon/armor enhancers (NOT REPLACERS!); I mentioned
TheOtherFelix's VGreetings in the other thread; etc..
Should
give you some idea of what we're after here...
Moderators: If
this quickly degenerates into a flame war of sorts, please... just
as quickly lock it and we'll go back to the way it has always
been... beautiful anarchy...
(small steps)
--------------------
Grumpy
My
mods
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| slategrey |
| Curate |
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| Reged: 06/25/02 |
| Posts: 494 |
| Loc: Finland | |
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Complete
Morrowind.
Primary Needs 2.6 (complete morrowind 2 when its out
of beta)
Inscription
Kai Globes 2.7 (shameless self
pluggidisation)
Advanced Herbalism
MTT2
Ice's robe
replacer.
Divine Domina.
Book Rotate 5. whatever the latest
version is.
Theres more, but those are my "dont play without"
Mods
--------------------
---------------------------------------------
Founder and "Soul" member of the "I love Kai Globes" Fan Club
Kai Globes v2.8, Apprentice Scrolls and Mystic Quills v1.4 .
Don't leave Home without them.
Multi Manniquins V1.2; The
Manniquin that changes to suit your needs.
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| Daduke |
| Diviner |
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| Reged: 07/12/02 |
| Posts: 2172 |
| Loc: Canada | |
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hmmm - no face
mods? sigh thats one of my must haves
but
Quickstart -
so you can skip that annoying intro
Aerelorn's Morrowind
Enchanced with journal and writing
--------------------
Daduke assumes certain things are
understood namely that he makes requests not demands and what he say
is his opinion and that some of the things he says are humorous
-Motoki-
----------
My Website
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| Limorkil |
| Adept |
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| Reged: 08/28/02 |
| Posts: 388 |
| Loc: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Not sure I
fully understand your criteria, but here are some mods that I cannot
play without that do not fundamentally change the feel of the
game:
Morrowind Unofficial Patch
Divine Domina
1-4
Ice/Brady's Male and Female Robe Replacer
Furnishers
Hall
Hall of Mannequins
Houses for Sale (goes with Furnishers
Hall, since the houses have no furniture)
Indybank - no
houses
Vivec Expansion
Real Signposts (not sure if that's the
right name - the one WITHOUT colors)
Beds 4
Rent
--------------------
Zorremalku the Dunmer
Phantom Elite (Xbox)
Level: 18
High Skills: Short Blade (80)
Mysticism (71) Destruction (64)
Factions: Temple(8),
Telvanni(6), Mages(8), Morag Tong(7)
Current loc/activity: Stuck
in Sadrith Mora for the moment while Limorkil's obsession with
Leifang runs its course
Updated: 8/9/04
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| Reffa |
| Curate |
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| Reged: 12/11/03 |
| Posts: 484 |
| Loc: ...soon to be Bootcamp...
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Well, if you
really want to think about taking baby-steps... Doesn't almost
everyone who is new to modding go out and download the official
Bethsoft Plugins?
I would think those would be the smallest
of the smallest steps you could possibly take. They don't really do
anything 'too' drastic (other than Firemoth), they work, and they're
official...
-Reffa
--------------------
'Do a
search u lazy scrote monkey  '
-mortimermcspongeington
Mage Mod Thread - post your Mage related mods
here!
My Character, Xecca
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Seasons
by TheLys, you gotta love it.
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| fable2 |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 05/18/04 |
| Posts: 1054 |
| Loc: Currently: The US. Desired: The
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Book Rotate.
Real Furniture. Potted Plants. Advanced Herbalism.
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Some others
not mentioned yet:
LDone's 'Thief Experience Overhaul' but
only the lockpicking, trap and open spell balancing. Reason: it is
rather ridiculous that you can disarm any trap from day 1 with an
apprentices lockpick so that's an essential fix in my opinion.
Overall I think these mods don't affect gameplay drastically. I
wouldn't use the sneak mod of this package though as that does alter
gameplay as well as break training (unintentionally I'm sure) for
the sneak skill.
Mephisto's 'Creature Pack 1.1'. Reason:
probably a bit controversial but it doesn't add new creature models
or anything, just adds variety to existing creatures. At earlier
levels there are more passive creatures and the challenge remains
even as you continue levelling up to higher levels. I think it's
pretty seamless really and enhances the original levelled
list.
'Persuasion Response Expansion v4'. Reason: greatly
enhances persuasion responses without altering gameplay or
anything.
The various 'Voice add-ons'. Reason: this can only
enhance the overall atmosphere and doesn't change gameplay. It's not
changing any voices, only adding them.
'Bloated Morrowind'
Reason: simple, effective and helps to explain just where exactly
the Bloat ingredient comes from.
There's also two mods for
changing the icons for scrolls and potions in the character's
inventory. Perhaps these are a matter of taste, but they really do
help with identification and are very useful. I think they're
available on the summit.
Max_aka_Nobody's 'Complete
Morrowind'. Reason: well, this does alter gameplay a bit and
therefore might not qualify, but given that it makes all the useless
bits and bobs of the gameworld less useless, it's probably worth
including just to round everything out a bit. The only problem with
it is that there are various typos etc. here and there which give
away it's origins as a mod. I'm not trying to criticise here, but
just saying that because of that it doesn't blend into Morrowind as
seamlessly as it might otherwise.
TheLys 'Dwemer Clock
Enhanced'. Reason: one of the first things I wanted to do when I
first played was find out the time of day without having to hit the
rest key. It's simple and doesn't affect gameplay.
Of course
a list such as this is subject to debate but I've tried to suggest
none gameplay affecting mods or anything that changes the world of
Morrowind too much. As for the various Herbalism and Alchemy mods
out there, I couldn't decide. I think if you're going to use a
Herbalism mod then you're probably also using Srikandi's Homeopathic
Alchemy, but that changes Alchemy to such a degree that it affects
gameplay (albeit in a good way). So if you're not going to change
the Alchemy gameplay, then it just seems like overkill to include
Herbalism in the list. If you did though I'll put in a vote for
Herbalism Redux since it's simple and non-complicated.
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Morrowind
Advanced
Ice & brady's Robe replacers
ModMan's Window
Lights (despite the FPS hit)
Morrowind Comes Alive
(ditto)
These, plus BH, BB and kallazza Visual Pack are on my
always have loaded list.
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| DarkOneVenzar |
| Diviner |
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| Reged: 11/04/03 |
| Posts: 2774 |
| Loc: Realm of Darkness | |
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I am not
completely understanding the concept here so I will post some mods
that I think are good starter mods. These are mods I refuse to play
without and some of them are helpful like the Paper fix.
1-Carnithius' Armamentarium
2-Better Bodies v2.0
3-Better Heads
v1.1
4-Morrowind Comes Alive v2.2
5-Plain Paper Fix
6-Windows Glow v1.75
7-Durzog Armor v1.1
8-Knights of Tamriel
9-Canus' Necromantic Robe
10-CanadianIce's Female Necromantic Robe
11-Wizard's
Hats v1.0
12-Key Replacer v1.3
13-CanadianIce's Female Robe Replacer
--------------------
7-Zip
Forever!
Home of the 8-bit theater
Intellectua- Join
today
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| Wolvington |
| Adept |
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| Reged: 07/25/04 |
| Posts: 214 |
| Loc: scotland | |
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hmm...
cloak and dagger
partners 2.2 OPEN by
skullhunter, getter here, http://www.freewebs.com/krustykrusty/SK_Partners_Open2.2.esp
that
one allows for same sex relationships and cuts the scripts needed
from a whole lot, to three, and as always easy to make ur own
specific partner, or recreate yourself everytime you make a new
char, so the old one is never forgotten.... and you can hang with
him/her 
--------------------
I like my wemon
how i like my meat..... dead....
Member of the Nordic Clan(under construction)
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| MadPauly |
| Curate |
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| Reged: 11/13/03 |
| Posts: 525 |
| Loc: Purgatory | |
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Only three
from me.
ThePal's Unofficial Patch (pretty much a must, since
it fixes so very much).
MWA v 1.82 (Stromgarde's reworking of
WormGod's classic).
The Morrowind Enhanced suite by Aerelorn
(adds things that should have been there anyway).
I could go
on and list any number of retexture packs, voice addons or whatever,
but those are, in my opinion, more to personal choice. Some might
prefer the photo-realism of Qarl's work; others may prefer the
bright (dare I say blindingly so?) work of Brash's Fantasy Colour
Morrowind. Voice addons are nice but make for huge downloads.
Necessities of Morrowind alters gameplay drastically.
Best of
luck with this venture, Grumpy!
Regards,
Pauly
TheLys
Administrator
--------------------
A gentleman and a
scholar of fine art ~ Galley, about yours truly 
TheLys Morrowind
Mods
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Ok - I'm
thinking of a basic list that should run on most machines. That
means I'm skipping the more cpu-intensive stuff. I'm also skipping
the little add-ons that are nice but not really necessary - this is
just the basics:
1. A Face Mod: Better Heads
2.
Weapon Add-on Faarp's compilation, adds bows & meele
both
3. Female Armor Replacer La Femme official plugin
& Avenger's armor
4. Female Clothes Avenger's shirts,
Ice & Brady's robe replacer
5. A House Mod (Pick One)
Abu Manor (lrg) Abu Retreat (med) Marrowind Abodes (sm)
6.
Armor Add-on Jeremy's Knights of Tamriel
7. Creature
Addon Morrowind Advanced
8. Magicka Addon Dynamick
Magick Regen
9. Magick Addon Magical Trinketts
10.
Alchemy Addon Herbalism Redux
11. Aclemy Sorter Addon
Auto Alchemy Lab
12. Marksman Addon Suran Archery
House
13. Companion Laura Croft
14. Thief add-on
LDones Thief experience overhaul
15. Land Add-on Havish
& Haldenshore
I didn't include a body mod since it's
really pretty rare to ever see anyone's bodies.
I included
female armor since, even if you're playing a male character, it's
nice to see the females in the world looking female.
I have a
lot of magick stuff listed since magic users need a lot of help in
the game.
The Alchemy Redux mod by Mode_Locrian is very
lightweight and relieves most of the pain of gathering stuff. The
auto-alchemy labs by Andoreth relieves the rest of the pain. Even
non-Alchemist specialists will apreciate these.
The Suran
archery house adds bows and interest for archers while being less
intrusive than the marksmen mod.
Jeremy's stuff is great
armor for both male & female characters.
I chose
Avenger's armor for the basic replacer because it's a little more
varied than the Domina series.
I chose MWA for creatures
since it's such a seamless addition.
Anyway that's my list of
the basics I would suggest to a new mod-user. I don't acutally
expect there to be agreement 
--------------------
Ronin's "Everything You've Every Wanted to Know About
Mods But Were Afraid To Ask" Thread
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I'll just add
my favorite obsession, The Lighting Mod by Sensei, available at
Summit. Really makes the dungeons darker and more atmospheric
~shadowchylde
Post Extras: |
| Grumpy |
| Disciple |
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| Reged: 08/02/02 |
| Posts: 1590 |
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Many
thanks...
Quote:
Well, if you really want to think about taking baby-steps...
Doesn't almost everyone who is new to modding go out and download
the official Bethsoft Plugins?
I would think those would be
the smallest of the smallest steps you could possibly take. They
don't really do anything 'too' drastic (other than Firemoth), they
work, and they're official...
If this list gets done, those
will definately be mentioned, but I'm more intrested in mods from
the modders here. I think most people hit those first
anyway...
Fix type mods...
Do we really think a
beginner should be looking at a bunch of facepacks, or mods that add
new weapons, etc.. I might go with Jeremy's Dominal series, cause it
could be argued that they do not affect overall gameplay, but we're
looking at 5 different mods there. Not large downloads, but... Same
with other graphic replacer mods...
All of this stuff will be
added to the poll however, so it will be the voters who decide in
the end.
..again, thanks. I'll leave this up for a few days
and see what else pops.
--------------------
Grumpy
My mods
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| Monica21 |
| Master |
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| Reged: 01/16/03 |
| Posts: 6109 |
| Loc: D'Hara | |
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Personally, I
think everyone should play Morrowind at least once without any mods.
I think that doing so gives the player a much better idea of what he
or she would want from a mod instead of downloading one based on
recommendation and perhaps not understanding the ramifications of
downloading.
That said, I would recommend the following,
simply because they help eliminate the "sexless" look of the in-game
clothing and armor. Anything else is gravy. 
- CanadianIce and Brady's Robe Replacer
- Avenger's Female Shirts
- Divine Domina or Avenger's Female Armor
- Prosey's Female Pants
I would not add a house
mod. It's easy enough to get a stronghold during the course of
gameplay, and I would really recommend not using a house mod until
you can fully understand what you want in one. Getting a stronghold
or taking over a house in-game can give you a much better idea of
what you're looking for.
--------------------
ElricM Web Portal
Telesphoros' List 'o Mods
kwshipman's List of House Mods
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Quote:
I'll just add my favorite obsession, The Lighting Mod by
Sensei, available at Summit. Really makes the dungeons darker and
more atmospheric
~shadowchylde
Do interiors *really* need to
be any darker? Why, I can hardly see anything inside of most every
shack. In fact, I wear out much of my magicka using the light
spell...Come to think of it, that has played a major role in my
levelling up...
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As for my
favorite can't play without enhancement mods:
- Passive
Healthy Wildlife (IMO much more realistic.)
- Economy Plugins
(all of them, can safely have Bloodmoon or Tribunal cleaned out of
them with no adverse effects aside from many error messages at
startup, which is also a plus)
- Complete Morrowind Full (must
have, must have, must have. omplements Economy Plugs amazingly)
-
NPCReplace (IMO the BEST replacer mod)
- Better Bodies (no more
super-muscular bodies. *much* better then the shipped ones)
-
Herbalism Advanced (Awesome)
- Lighting Mod (Incredible. Animated
window lights individually placed and created. A masterpiece.)
-
Morrowind Additions (More Critters! Never a bad thing!)
-
Morrowind 4 Fish BETA (I just love fish. Perfect mod for enhancing
the oceans. Perfect.)
- Caits Critters Unleashed (Cows, Goats,
even Pigs! Major FPS Hit, can be left out)
- Beasts of Burden:
Packguar (Another Atmosphere enhancement mod. I remember in those
dark days when I knew nothing about plugins and mods and had only
Morrowind I tried and tried to find a way to get a pack guar. This
was the first mod I downloaded, and I still have it
today.)
Well, that's all I have to contribute...
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Quote:
Do we really think a beginner should be looking at a bunch of
facepacks, or mods that add new weapons
yes. why not? I mean, if
they're going to use mods at all. Every mod changes the game
experience and there's no way you can simultaneously use mods and
not alter things.
There's no universal place where we can
draw a line and say "this stuff isn't appropriate for
beginners."
For example, I can't really see how playing the
game with Bethesda's heads makes for a better experience - certainly
not for such a great experience that people should avoid head mods
initially at the risk of, what? ruining? the experience. Nobody's
life will be poorer for loading up a good head mod on day one. Ditto
for a good alchemy mod, etc.
In my opinion of
course.
In retrospect, I based my list on the idea that a
beginner should use whatever mods appeals to him or her, but would
do well to start small with a few mods at a time rather than
download 9645 and try to use them all at once. I was making a list
from the perspective of what would be a good technical approach to
someone who was new to using mods.
The baby steps, in my
list I mean, were from a technical angle, not trying to ease a
player into incremental game changes. My feelings on game changes
would be "whatever pops your corn."
--------------------
Ronin's "Everything You've Every Wanted to Know About
Mods But Were Afraid To Ask" Thread
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| cdcooley |
| Novice |
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| Reged: 05/03/04 |
| Posts: 12 |
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Quote:
What we want: A short list of "defacto" mods that most
everybody can agree on for use in the game.
I'm afraid this noble and
worthwhile idea is doomed from the start. :-)
Quote:
Do's: Mods that "enhance" the original game, but do not
modify gameplay nor the overall "feel" of the game (probably not a
good explanation... live with it).
Dont's: No face packs,
no quests, no massive graphics enhancing mods, etc.
Just
the mods that most use in the game on a very regular
basis.
I think I know what you mean, but
those face packs and graphics enhancing mods are the most
used!
OK. The first few on my list are easy. They change my
experience more than they do the game world itself.
Absolute
Must-Have Mods:
QuickFix (manauser?) - sooner or later they'll
need it.
Balmora Un-Mod (mouse) - sooner or later they'll want
it.
Unofficial Patch (Thepal) - (and don't forget to official
ones too)
Meta-game Mods:
SilentCharGen (Small
Improvements Version?) - (I use a custom one.)
MagicMarker
(ElBundee) - purely cosmetic unlike Erasmus's mods and closer in
feel to the original.
And of course the FPS Optimizer Utility is
required for any serious play.
In-game Appearance Mods:
(A
Magic Shimmer mod) - I like Evil Sorcerer's Enchantment Colors
De-enhancer.
(Any signpost mod) - I like Franzhauer's Textured
Signs Neutral, but Mixed Signposts is probably best for
starters.
Unique Banners and Signs (Bart Notelaers) - handy for
first timers especially
RCC4MW (Daerk) - default lighting is less
than great
In-game Better World Interaction
Mods:
Vgreetings (The Other Felix) - unused voices are a
waste
Persuasion Response Expansion (Glassboy) - variety is
good
BookRotate (Cydine & Maboroshi Daikon) - not critical
but nice
Things I'm not so certain about:
An
herbalism mod would be nice, but which one. Maybe Herbalism Light
would be OK, but it's probably better to let them suffer through the
plant-as-container mode so they appreciate what they are getting
when they pick one for themselves.
I love Atmospheric Sound
Effects but it's multipart install is just too much to inflict on a
beginner. The other sound mods aren't much better and which to use
is really dependent on personal taste (and sound card
abilities).
Rings and Amulets is great, but probably too big
to be a most-have.
I personally use a very customized
collection of clothing and armor from a variety of places, so I
don't know what to recommend to start, but definately
something.
A face replacer would be nice, but do ANY of them
really maintain the original feel? Most seem to go overboard by
replacing those Dumner crones Bethesda gave us with pre-teens. Even
those that don't use the fountain of youth usually change the look
of the characters radically and look really odd on the standard
bodies. So you're probably right that it's better to postpone the
head and body makeover.
I don't think Aerelorn's Morrowind
Enhanced mods make my cut as a starter set. But they should make it
into the "OK, now you've started, what next?" list.
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Monica21:
Quote:
Personally, I think everyone should play Morrowind at least
once without any mods.
You know, for the first time I
really tried that. I explored the whole Seyda Neen, a patch of land
around it (at that time I also believed in "thorough" exploration of
the map), and even reached Pelagiad. Then I looked at official
"Bitter Coast Sounds", "Textured Signs", and some more mods (can't
remember what else) and thought - what's wrong if I add this? Of
course, when I came to the end of the main plot, there was much more
mods in my list, though not anything gamaplay-changing. And I don't
think that I've missed much because of "impure" game. I agree with
MeghanAJH - there are mods that add to experience without spoiling
even the first impression.
What I think is essential:
1. Body mod - either BB or SB. It may be matter of choice
which one of them, but deliberate playing without them really has no
virtue about it.
2. Face replacer - of course, there are
several of them, and they differ in style. For a beginner, IMHO,
Better Heads/Unique Heads combo is a flawless choice. They are done
highly tastefully and with original spirit kept.
3. Signs -
again, there's choice, but there's no point to reject them at all.
My personal preference is Textured Signs (colored), though I admit
that other options may be good as well. Nigedo's Authentic Signs are
also a good pick.
4. Female outfit replacers - all Avenger's
sets with or without Ice/Brady replacer for robes and Prosey's
Pants.
5. Herbalism - even though I am a purist and prefer
Balor's original over Advanced, *one* of Herbalism mods is an
absolute must, unless you have a really slow computer that can't
handle it. (Then again, when I had such a slow computer - PII/300,
256MB RAM, GeForce2MX400 - I *still* thought it's worth it).
6. Book Rotate - no questions asked. Readable Rotated Books
is a good addition too, though with new BR version it probably has
to be TESTool'ed for new scripts.
7. FrostByte's gold
textures - others are a matter of personal taste, this one is for
everyone and has no fault about it.
8. Sharpened
weapons/armors.
9. SilentCharGen and Delayed DB Attacks - I
use my versions of them.
10. Dwemer Clock -
here I also prefer my version over TheLys'.
11. Aerelorn's
Enhanced mods. Absolute must.
12. At least one of sound
enhancers. I prefer ASE.
13. Vivec/Almalexia/etc. voice
add-ons.
14. Windows Glow.
15. Key Replacer.
16. Ring texture fix.
17. Persuasion Responce
Expansion (+ Nudity Greeting add-on).
18. Time Mod. The
default day's length in Morrowind is really inadequate.
19.
Tribunal Integration - adds some pieces from Tribunal
armors/weapons/dialogs into original Morrowind where it is logically
justified.
20. Last but definitely not least - Unofficial
Patch 1.6.2
[EDIT:] Damn, I forgot about
Potions&Scrolls. And VGreetings. They are a must too.
Edited by Kir (08/04/04 04:04
AM)
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| Cyrodiil |
| Curate |
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| Reged: 04/21/03 |
| Posts: 461 |
| Loc: USA, East Coast, Eastern Time Zone
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First, play through the game without any mods. Then
give these a try:
Better Heads 1.1
(I
had to wrestle with the idea of using a facepack for a while, and
I've decided that BH 1.1 is the way to go)
Give your Orders
1.3
Smoother Bodies (screw Better Bodies)
VGreetings
(ABSOLUTE must-have)
Khalazza Production Imperial Shield
Smith
IndyBank v2.4
Cait's Critters Unleashed
(ABSOLUTE must-have)
RealSignposts
Necessities of
Morrowind
Rain's Hand Hall (yes it's different, but it does
not interfere with the game at all)
--------------------
Check out my WIP!!!
http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2981706&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
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| Monica21 |
| Master |
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| Reged: 01/16/03 |
| Posts: 6109 |
| Loc: D'Hara | |
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Kir:
Quote:
Personally, I think everyone should play Morrowind at least
once without any mods.
Quote:
You know, for the first time I really tried that. I explored
the whole Seyda Neen, a patch of land around it (at that time I
also believed in "thorough" exploration of the map), and even
reached Pelagiad. Then I looked at official "Bitter Coast Sounds",
"Textured Signs", and some more mods (can't remember what else)
and thought - what's wrong if I add this?
The reason I say that is
simply because I'm drawing on my own experience. My first character
was a level 20 before I accidentally saved over her, and she'd
beaten the main quest without a single mod. I still don't have all
that many mods loaded right now, maybe 50 or 60? I just think it's
better to play through (probably not the whole main quest) but a
good part of the game so that you actually realize the benefits of
such-and-such mod. There are mods that break quests, and I'm pretty
sure I have a mod (or several) that breaks at least two quests. I
haven't had the "work" topic from Larrius Varro for quite some time
and I always have to add it manually. And I haven't been able to go
anywhere near Ald Daedroth without constant CTDs and my game
eventually loading up corrupted. (Missing shock and frost spells,
etc.) Those are things that I know how to work around, but someone
new to mods might not have a clue.
I don't know what's
causing those problems, and really I'm too lazy to find out, what
with those being easy fixes and all, but at least I've played
through the game enough so that I know what should happen and I can
force (through addtopic or a journal entry) the correct
resolution.
I suppose I said all that to say that if you
don't know what's supposed to happen, how do you know how to fix it
if you do have problems?
--------------------
ElricM Web Portal
Telesphoros' List 'o Mods
kwshipman's List of House Mods
Post Extras: |
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let me say
first that if my mod list isn't what Grumpy had in mind (I can see
that it really wasn't myself) than my opinion here isn't all that
important.
Monica I agree that the odd crashes and
incompatibilites are something that a beginner would find
frustrating. One of the reasons I chose the mods I did was because
they don't conflist with each other. I was trying to make like a mod
'sampler pack.' My list gives a little taste of some of the
time-tested mods in some of the basic mod categories.
But
it's not a definitive list, by any means.
--------------------
Ronin's "Everything You've Every Wanted to Know About
Mods But Were Afraid To Ask" Thread
Post Extras: |
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True_Lights_and_Darkness 0.5. It's a really great
lighting mod. Unknown author and no site in the read-me. If anyone
knows where it's from please tell me.
--------------------
Best. Signature. Ever.
perhaps,
but i'd rather make a big deal out of it.-Koros
My Screenshots
Post
Extras: |
| Grumpy |
| Disciple |
|
|
| Reged: 08/02/02 |
| Posts: 1590 |
| |
|
Ok... On
further thought, I'm probably going to drop this...
Here's
the rub: I do not want this list to get anywhere near a "Greatest
Mods" list.
Example: I like Better Heads, but if that winds
up being a "winner", then at that point, we have "stiffled" other
head mods, and everybody will say: Well "THE LIST" says to use BH
and nobody experiments; nobody tries to create better mods..
etc...
Not saying that is the way it would go, but I really
do not want this to turn into a "Favorite Mods" list. What I did
want were those (sorry to keep repeating myself here, but...)
defacto mods that everybody would use...
Fix mods more or
less...
I would dearly love to see Jeremy's domina series, or
Ice's robe replacer on the list. These mods really don't change the
game experience, just enhance it, but then what happens to other
armor mods or robe replacers, and at that point, what right would
any entity, whether it be individual or social in nature, have to
exclude one mod in favor of other mods.
I can as easily point
people to Telesporos' list or Ronin's with a whole lot less
controversy.
I do not want this to be a "judgement" of
mods...
I suppose, as somebody above mentioned: This idea was
poorly concieved at best, and at worst my wording
sucked.
Sorry...
They (ideas) can't all be
winners...
I might reconsider what has been listed here and
see if maybe a few of us can come up with some kind of consensus on
a few (non-controversial) mods, but I really don't want to be the
one chairing a panel of judges, and I most assuradly will not be the
one to claim that one mod is better than another.
My
appologies for the fuss...
--------------------
Grumpy
My mods
Post Extras: |
| Ronin49 |
| Disciple |
|
|
| Reged: 03/08/04 |
| Posts: 1792 |
| Loc: Canada | |
|
Grumpy - No
apologies necessary, no fuss. Oh, I very much hear where you are
coming from but we know that is how it goes and ya just gotta sift
through it, if you want to that is. 
If not, OK too.
It's like Joe-2-posts pops up, doesn't
really look around 
and says 'hows about some mods, eh?" [Canadian,eh?] and you get a
six page thread recommending 1,796 mods - some broken, some weird
(to me or to a novice), many conflicting, lots that don't load up
easily, a few game-breaking, quite a few very demanding on the
system and about four to six being relevant to the novice's
immediate needs. The other 1,790 to 1,792 mods mentioned being
relevant to the needs of the poster to express their honest, genuine
and sincere approval of the mod in question and its place in their
gaming experience NOW, not when they started!
OK, so I
exaggerate a little . . . but not much.
So,
sh . . can it if ya want, no biggee there either. But it was and is
a good idea 
and no need to be less than happy with that. So the execution has
some challenges . . .  .
It could be very useful - folk just need to answer the question
asked [RTFQ] and throttle back a bit.
--------------------
"And to everyone seeing naked and
headless people, READ THE README!!! It's the answer to all your
troubles." Neoptolemus
Mythic Mods
----> Starting Out With Mods, Telesphoros' List o'Mods,
Ronin49's Lists & Links, Theme Mod Lists.
Post Extras: |
| cdcooley |
| Novice |
|
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| Reged: 05/03/04 |
| Posts: 12 |
| |
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Quote:
Ok... On further thought, I'm probably going to drop
this...
Based on the replies (including
mine) I can see why. We've all overstepped the boundaries you wanted
to set.
Quote:
What I did want were those (sorry to keep repeating myself
here, but...) defacto mods that everybody would use...
I don't think there is such a
list, that's the problem. But I still think your idea has potential,
but I think you'll be better off just creating what you think is an
appropriate list and then seeing how many of us complain about what
you put on your list, not what you don't put on it.
Quote:
These mods really don't change the game experience, just
enhance it, but then what happens to other armor mods or robe
replacers, and at that point, what right would any entity, whether
it be individual or social in nature, have to exclude one mod in
favor of other mods.
I think you need to be very
explicit that you are creating a "starter-kit" not a definitive list
of "perfect" mods. In fact, unless there is only one of a particular
type of mod, you probably want to pick the one with the smallest
download, smallest number of changes to the world, etc. Beginners
should start with the "LITE" versions not the "BEST". After all,
best is a very subjective thing, but we can (almost) all agree ones
which are small.
Quote:
I can as easily point people to Telesporos' list or Ronin's
with a whole lot less controversy.
Well, you need to point them to
those lists anyway simply to reinforce the idea that your really are
just creating a list for beginners.
I agree with Ronin49.
The idea of a list of safe, small, minimal game change, but
experience enhancing mods for new players is really a good idea. One
of the biggest problems for a beginner is the overwheming mass of
mods available.
Of course, I also understand if you want to
give up. It is a daunting task.
Post Extras: |
| Iudas |
| Disciple |
|
|
| Reged: 10/30/02 |
| Posts: 1197 |
| |
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Grumpy there
are only two mods that are required on this list:
ThePal's
unofficial bugfix and Kevin Donner's Text Patch.
Any other mod
changes the gameplay, changes the experience, changes the visuals,
changes something. Corrected spelling and corrected scripts so that
they work ... so that the game actually plays somewhere close to
what Bethesda envisioned.
Anything beyond that becomes a matter
of varying tastes.
I run approx 225 mods and not one of them is a
face, body, head, hair, clothes replacer ... other folks will not
even start a new game without having new faces new bodies new
hairstyles installed.
Lots of folks do not run any weapon balance
mods or armour balance or mercantile ... to me the game sucks
without a good weapons balance, and my own mercantile corrections.
And so on and so on....even Bethesda's own plugins raise issues,
Area Effect Arrows make markmanship the UBER TOOL, siege at Firemoth
has enough problems to sink any mod, BitterCoast sounds is too
limited, etc etc and bloody etc.
And on top of all this, are you
actually asking for 6 lists because some folks will never upgrade to
Trib or BM some folks updated to one or the other and some folks
have all three or GOTY and of those there are still some folks who
probably did not upgrade to the last patch from
Bethesda.
Post Extras: |
| sunsi |
| Diviner |
|
|
| Reged: 02/05/03 |
| Posts: 3342 |
| Loc: New York Outback | |
|
Ok, now your
last PM makes sense, Grumpy
Give
me a few and I'll come on back and add to your troubles
--------------------
"Szczescie jest pomiedzy ustami i
brzegiem kielicha"
"happiness is between the lips and the rim of
a glass"
Post Extras: |
| Vysion |
| Acolyte |
|
|
| Reged: 07/09/04 |
| Posts: 103 |
| Loc: NC, USA | |
|
Must have mods
I begin the game with but not screwing up the game:
1) Book
Rotate 5.2 (great for book organizing)
2) Plain Paper Fix (to
avoid the extra click when picking up several)
3) RealSignposts
(makes them legible)
4) Morrowind Toy Shoppe (probably not if you
want absolutely no spoilers about what creatures look like, but I
love these little figurines)
5) Creepermoremoney (only updates
Creeper to 50,000; not an abusive amount but doesn't everyone want
just a bit more mone)
And the rest:
NameChange,
Weight_fix_0607, Enchantment Color De-Enhancer, HeightWeightAdj,
SecretMasterFix, Shrinetext, Slower Fatigue Running, TribunalMaps,
TribunalQuestFix, WritRedemption, Adamantium armor, Fix
typos
Overall, no house mods as you have to play at least
once without knowing where to stay.
-Vysion, the kettle black
as I've never finished the game unmodified
--------------------
My screenshots and my stories
Post Extras:
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| Grumpy |
| Disciple |
|
|
| Reged: 08/02/02 |
| Posts: 1590 |
| |
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Quote:
Grumpy there are only two mods that are required on this
list:
ThePal's unofficial bugfix and Kevin Donner's Text
Patch.
Any other mod changes the gameplay, changes the
experience, changes the visuals, changes something. Corrected
spelling and corrected scripts so that they work ... so that the
game actually plays somewhere close to what Bethesda
envisioned.
Anything beyond that becomes a matter of varying
tastes.
I run approx 225 mods and not one of them is a face,
body, head, hair, clothes replacer ... other folks will not even
start a new game without having new faces new bodies new
hairstyles installed.
Lots of folks do not run any weapon
balance mods or armour balance or mercantile ... to me the game
sucks without a good weapons balance, and my own mercantile
corrections. And so on and so on....even Bethesda's own plugins
raise issues, Area Effect Arrows make markmanship the UBER TOOL,
siege at Firemoth has enough problems to sink any mod, BitterCoast
sounds is too limited, etc etc and bloody etc.
And on top of
all this, are you actually asking for 6 lists because some folks
will never upgrade to Trib or BM some folks updated to one or the
other and some folks have all three or GOTY and of those there are
still some folks who probably did not upgrade to the last patch
from Bethesda.
Crux of the matter, but as
I've explained to a couple of people already (PM), these
"definitive" mods already exist to some degree. It's just a matter
of "defining " them (and definately not a simple matter,
either).
BTW: This (very) short list so far, now includes
ThePal's patch mod and this "text fix" mod, but I would still like
to think there might be others.
Other two tenative
mods:
Beds 4 Rent mod
Tadeus' "Better Inns"
mod
First adds rentable beds to some towns where they are
missing, and the second gives some renting options (1 day to 30
days). Given my criteria, the second is questionable, but I would
like to think it a nice addition...
...upshot is that it's
still "in process". Nothing may come of it, but I'ld like to think
that "we" will give it a shot anyway.
...and thanks for the
continued intrest...
--------------------
Grumpy
My
mods
Post Extras: |
| bl4k3 |
| Acolyte |
|
|
| Reged: 06/19/04 |
| Posts: 178 |
| Loc: texas | |
|
if you are
doing general "bug-fix" type mods then the mod that changes
ownership of the potion chest in the wolverine halls mages guild
should be added...
--------------------
http://www.kickyouintheeye.com/
hey look its
my website!
Post Extras: |
| Grumpy |
| Disciple |
|
|
| Reged: 08/02/02 |
| Posts: 1590 |
| |
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Nymeria's Mage
Guild Fix has been mentioned as well if that is what you are
refering to.
...and forgot to mention that expansions
"should" (and will) be taken into consideration. Bunch of the BM
fixes have already been noted.
Hopefully there will be a
"short" list put up in the near future for review and subsequent
revision by this community.
...and to "ThePal" if you are
following this: Not really sure how to word this, but I understand
this effort of yours is (and has been) a bunch to lay on one person,
and I would like to express my gattitude for your original mod, and
wish you well with any future revisions.
"We" will try and
stay with this. Perhaps a "current" list that revolves around the
current "Patch" mod with subsequent revisions when/if a newer
version is released.
--------------------
Grumpy
My
mods
Post Extras: |
| Yu-Gi |
| Diviner |
|
|
| Reged: 12/18/02 |
| Posts: 2156 |
| Loc: The Battle City Finals.
| |
|
Unofficial
Morrowind Patch
Text Patch
Windows Glow II
TLM-The Lighting
Mod
Taddeus' Balanced Mods
Wakims Game Improvements -
Modular
Yu-Gi
--------------------
Best EVER
Morrowind utility - TESTool
Morrowind's BIGGEST bugfix - Unofficial Morrowind Patch
ENERGY... Want Some? Come And Get
It! Password = Guest.
Post Extras: |
| Iudas |
| Disciple |
|
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| Reged: 10/30/02 |
| Posts: 1197 |
| |
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Grump, a list
of mods that fix mechanical, grammatical, and scripting flaws and
that correct obvious omissions from the game?
Leaving out the
ability to rent beds in some of the ovbious tradehouses and corner
clubs fits --- so one of the three or four mods that address this
omission is reasonable.
Wakim's flee improvement is reasonable.
( but it changes the gameplay significantly )
Ldone's lockpick
and trap improvement are reasonable. ( Truly significant changes to
gameplay here also )
SriKandy's Bloodmoon ammo fix.
The
King's Oath fix
The Brittlewind fix
The ShadowSting fix
The mods that fix the wrong armour nifs being used ( mostly in
BM )
One of the mods that lets the PC MOVE NPC's who get stuck
in doorways and on stairs. Shanjaq Move mod.
The DrenFaction
correction mod
One of the FireHurt mods ( makes standing in a
fire painful )
The Gnisis Guard Fix ( Gives guards in Gnisis the
proper weapon for their skillset ) ( I think this fix is included in
the unofficial fix mod also )
One of the lavafix mods
One of
the readable signpost mods
The Real Berenziah ( adds the
unexpurgated vol 2 from Daggerfall )
The other Felix's V
greetings series of mods
Month Bugfix version 2
The ring
texture fix mod is already included in the unofficial bugfix mod.
The shrine text mod.
Wakim's Dialogue from WGI corrects the
Nerevarine greeting situation.
I would vote for the KeyReplacer
mod on the grounds that Bethesda only used two textures for several
hundred keys but that argument can be used against it too.
There
are two mods that need to be done but that I don't think are doable
without access to the source code: One to correct the Turn Undead
series of spells and the other to correct the broken Unarmoured
skill. If only Bethesda would release another update for these two
things.
I think of these as the plumbing mods, nobody really
worries about the plumbing till the toilet breaks. These mods are
unpretentious but they fix the leaky toilet. What they don't attempt
to do is balance the game. Balance is subjective; broken scripts and
wrong meshes are objective.
There is a large body of thought
that suggests that: Mercantile is unbalanced, weapons are
unbalanced, alchemy is unbalanced, enchanting is unbalanced, armours
are unbalanced and often mis defined, birthsigns are unbalanced. I
don't think there is a consensus on what would constitute balance
for any of these unbalanced things.
A long time ago, there
was a listing of about 200 NPC's that need to be hand tweaked
because they are irrational in some way. Example: the sorceress that
has Chrysamere has a longblade skill of 12 so she might have that
ubernicesword but she is useless with it. The skeleton war wizard
guarding the Vampire ring has NO OFFENSIVE SPELLS. Sorkvild the
raven has no skill in heavy armour but he has the Masque of Clavicus
Vile which he cannot wear. Now to me these are logic flaws in the
game --- to others they aren't. I am slowly working on a mod to
correct these character illogicalities but while this mod will be a
"plumbing" mod in my eyes; in other's eyes it would be a major
change to the course of gameplay.
Edited by Iudas (08/06/04 09:41 AM)
Post Extras: |
| wakim |
| Adept |
|
|
| Reged: 10/02/02 |
| Posts: 262 |
| |
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"Balance is
subjective"
This cannot be, unless by "balance" you mean
something else, perhaps "preference?" Here I trot out an old
metaphor: Measure weight with a hanging pan balance and place a
pound of gold in one pan and a pound of feathers in the other. The
feathers and the gold are, by weight, balanced; you may, of course,
prefer the gold to the feathers, but now you are no longer speaking
of balance. Perhaps some other would desire the feathers instead of
the gold so that he may stuff them into a comfortable pillow - this
again is preference. For the reason that many may misconstrue what
balance is is no reason to conflate it with what it isn't. If
balance isn't objective then it can't be balance; it is necessary
that balance possess the property of being objective for it to be
balance. When balance becomes merely a subjective thing then it
ceases to exist per se.
One could ask one-hundred
people to sum three three-digit numbers (e.g. 763 + 239 +
834) and expect no consensus on the result; this doesn't mean that
there is not a single unique result that is correct for this
question. Perhaps some would even prefer their own, incorrect answer
to the correct one (i.e. perhaps an answer of 1234 has appeal
for its order, perhaps an answer of 1 has appeal for its
simplicity); one's preference does not change what is correct,
unless "correct" also means "preference." Soon, if this path is
followed, all meaning becomes mere "preference," including
preference itself, and hence presents the contradiction that
preference is meaningless (i.e. If all things are defined to
be one thing then there is only one thing; thus all things can't be
one thing).
Imagine if two people looked at the two objects
hanging in equilibrium on either pan of a balance scale and one
said, "It is balanced" and the other said, "It is not balanced." Is
it possible that any single thing can simultaneously be both itself
and another? Since balance can be measured it is empirical; since
balance exists independently of the observer it is objective.
Now, the goal of a game, any game, is diversion: This is the
essence of what a game is. (This is not to say that nearly anything
may not be misused and employed for something less than its purpose
- one may use a screwdriver to open his mail, but this isn't the
purpose of a screwdriver.) If we possessed perfect powers of
concentration we would not need to "take a break" to regain our
focus, nor sleep to refresh our bodies. It therefore seems
reasonable to abandon balance in a game when it embarrasses the
purpose of diversion; but this presents a different question: What
properties should a game have to accomplish its end?
It is
here, as a method of obtaining diversion, that balance re-enters as
a necessary game property. There are methods of diversion other than
games; a game is a species of diversion, not diversion itself. What
makes a game a game (and not something else) is that it is diversion
achieved by a contest of skill. A contest of skill that isn't
balanced is a poor contest and hence is a poor game.
Post Extras: |
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Quote:
Only three from me.
ThePal's Unofficial Patch (pretty
much a must, since it fixes so very much).
MWA v 1.82
(Stromgarde's reworking of WormGod's classic).
The Morrowind
Enhanced suite by Aerelorn (adds things that should have been
there anyway).
I concur with Madpauly, those
three. Though I'm not really sure if the second two fit the
criteria.
Post Extras: |
| Iudas |
| Disciple |
|
|
| Reged: 10/30/02 |
| Posts: 1197 |
| |
|
I shall stand
corrected and amend my words. In my defense, I was not using balance
in the mechanical sense of static equilibrium. In MW, that hanging
pan balance has flexible arms and a sliding pivot point and a few
merchants willing to put their thumbs on one pan or the other.
I
believe that it is possible to achieve internal consistency in the
various parts of MW. Armour can be made consistent across all the
various armours, weapons likewise, spells and spell making have
already been well handled by yourself; what I do not think is
possible is achieving a consensus among players/modders as to
dynamically balancing the whole of the game. Your mod achieved
consistency in the various individual parts that you addressed. And
overall I think you mod brought the whole of MW closer to an
internal consistency. Actually, that so much of unmodified MW is out
of balance is probably one of the great strengths of the game. So
much room to modify; so little time. There will always remain the
one great unbalance to MW and that is that one cannot "win" MW as a
pure mage or a pure stealth character. There is only one way to
destroy the heart and that is the flaw that will always leave MW
unbalanced.
If a great modder could come up with a way for a
pure mage to destroy the heart by magic only or a pure thief to
abscond with the heart --- ah but if wishes were horses, people in
hell would have ice water.
It was one of your old posts that I
had saved to my HD that motivated me to start developing the more
logical character mod, just as it was your work on the flee ai and
then in the balancing spells thread that motivated my work on
understanding and cleaning up the mercantile aspects of MW.
At
last count there are over 5000 publicly released mods for MW, that
yours is still one of the few really mandatory mods is quite a
testament.
Post Extras: |
| Grumpy |
| Disciple |
|
|
| Reged: 08/02/02 |
| Posts: 1590 |
| |
|
I'm going to
kind of bypass the "fix" mods for now. They should all be
included.
Very nice list, so thank you Iudas, and all others
who have posted here as well...
...and on to additional
mods:
"One of the mods that lets the PC MOVE NPC's who get
stuck in doorways and on stairs. Shanjaq Move
mod."
...excellent idea...
Other mods but I'm still
undecided on this (consensus is a bitch):
I'll use the
"readable signpost" mods as an example here: I think they should
also be included, but in order to avoid controversy the list should
just go ahead and include all that have been done. Possibly a link
to a page with examples (pics) of each.
Probably do this for
some of the others as well (window glow maybe).
Balance...
subjective at best (as has been already discussed). Maybe a second
list with these types of mods only... That might be workable.
--------------------
Grumpy
My
mods
Post Extras: |
| Iudas |
| Disciple |
|
|
| Reged: 10/30/02 |
| Posts: 1197 |
| |
|
I was assuming
that if there were more than one mod that did the same thing or
corrected the same missing aspect that they would all be listed and
the potential users could sort them out for themselves.
I believe
there are 4 mods that attack the rentable beds issue.
2 that
attack the Stuck in the Doorway NPC
at least 4 maybe 5 that
address signposts.
6 mods that address in one way or another the
lighting in MW ( some complementary some conflicting ). At least a
half a dozen that change, eliminate, tone down the SaranWarp effect
on magical items.
Then there are mods like the Nudity
Greeting Expansion and the Persuasion Response Expansion. They
expand on the extant content of the game but do not add new content.
One could argue either way for their inclusion or exclusion.
Just as one example, I did a really minor mod for myself that
assigns East Empire Co Faction membership to the EEC members on
Vvardenfell, it struck me as inconsistent that they were not given
that membership when BM was released.
Post
Extras: |
| Grumpy |
| Disciple |
|
|
| Reged: 08/02/02 |
| Posts: 1590 |
| |
|
Reason for
this "compilation" suggestion:
Perhaps wishful (or misguided)
thoughts, but I'm thinking the "learning" phase is coming to an end
as far as modding is concerned.
I am NOT saying that this
endeavor will ever end.
Doom modding is still viable after 10
years, and we've a much more refined tool than was (or is) available
to those who still pursue (and peruse) that game, and I'm absolutely
positive that creativity will still reign in MW land.
I am
mearly saying that we now have a reasonable comprehension of this
"tool" that we have been given, and I think a certain degree of
"consolidation" of the now, two years worth of effort on the part of
the modding community is desireable. Not only for new users, but so
that all modders can have a "core" of mods to work "with" to insure
a certain degree of compatibility for end users. Basically bring the
game up to some "defined" standard.
Our first step so to
speak...
The word "moron" (in reference to myself) keeps
popping into my mind for even starting this...
, but I have compiled the list, and we'll see what happens.
--------------------
Grumpy
My
mods
Post Extras: |
| sunsi |
| Diviner |
|
|
| Reged: 02/05/03 |
| Posts: 3342 |
| Loc: New York Outback | |
|
Here's
mine...these are regular mods that never get disabled:
Emma's mods
Grumpy's companion (God mode)
uber weapon mod
Trash cans (the author claims
getting rid of extra stuff improves fpm's)
Any and all
head/hair/clothes mods
Emma's travel rings
Sauron's Abode
Zahratustra's "My Balmora Residence"
This is my
bare bones, basic selection but there are a few more maybe not
appropreate for a starter list
--------------------
"Szczescie jest pomiedzy
ustami i brzegiem kielicha"
"happiness is between the lips and
the rim of a glass"
Post Extras: |
|
|
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i would have
to say:
Herbalism Redux 1.1
real signposts
Morrowind
Comes Alive
MultiMark
Windows Glow
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Mainly from
other posts, here is a list of mods....most of which do one of the
following:
Improve atmosphere (lighting mod, creature mods,
homeopathic alchemy, persuation expantion, etc.)
Improve
functionality (herbalism, quickstart, multimark, etc.)
Tweak
things (thief overhaul, adventurers, passive wildlife, patch, text
patch)
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Advanced
Herbalism (or herbalism light...)
Quickstart
Primary Needs 2.6
(complete morrowind 2 when its out of beta)
Morrowind Unofficial
Patch
Indybank
Real Signposts
LDone's 'Thief Experience
Overhaul'
Mephisto's 'Creature Pack 1.1
Persuasion Response
Expansion v4
Morrowind Comes Alive v2.2
Morrowind Advanced
1.82
Dynamick Magick Regen
Passive Healthy Wildlife
Balmora
Un-Mod (and the rest of the un-mod mods)
SilentCharGen
Srikandi's homeopathic alchemy mod
spellcasting
mod 1.2 (the one that lowers the cast cost)
multimark
mod!!!
Adventurers? (and superadventurers)
The lighting
mod
Vgreetings
--------------------
They say if you
play a Microsoft CD backwards you hear satanic messages. That's
nothing, because if you play it forwards it installs Windows. -Taco
The word politics comes from the prefix 'poly', meaning
'many', and the word 'ticks', meaning 'bloodsuckers'. -Mistress Coli
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| Disciple |
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| Reged: 10/30/02 |
| Posts: 1197 |
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MW Incomplete:
things omitted or partiallly omitted
MW Complete but WRONG:
things in the official esps that are illogical, incorrectly coded or
assigned, inept.
MyMorrowind: all the faces and lighting and
creatures and sounds and music and texture replacers and clothes and
relationships and bodies and quests and uberweapons and unterarmour
and companions and new landmasses and new birthsigns and evil mods
and godly mods and goth mods and vampire mods and houses and castles
and cities and HOUSES that I use and just have to have checked
before I will even begin to comtemplate a new character.
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Re: You vote: "Starter" mod list... [Re: 